Wonderful post, Chris. I believe you understand the "weight" of the cassock well. What you said helped me realize the honor, respect, and love we should show them because of their sacrifices. I have heard it said before that being tonsured and ordained is not a "promotion" in our sense of the word, rather, a donning of even more responsibility and therefore somewhat of a demotion in terms of limiting freedoms. Makes you wonder, "why on Earth would anyone ever want to be tonsured?? Or married, for that matter! It truly is a calling.
I rejoice with these three men and their wives and children, but we must not forget that there are plenty of others in our mission who give of themselves and spend many hours working who were not tonsured. Tonsuring and/or ordination is a manifestation of what already is, but that these three men are the only three to wear cassocks besides Fr. D. does not mean that the others do not manifest the same devotion and sacrifice. Many women in our church do (besides the wives of these men), and as we both know they will never wear cassocks. One man was not tonsured who has been a member of our mission for many years. I think we all expected him to be tonsured, but he wasn't. That is okay, but he still manifests the gifts and graces of servant. Remember we believe in an upside down pyramid and these men have taken a step down from us in authority and prestige.
Someone at dinner the other night commented to Fr. D. about our archbishop's humility in saying, "I'm not the only one with a direct line to God." Fr. D. said, "Yes, that would be clericalism."
Coming from you that means a lot. I have never prided myself on a depth of ecclesial or theological knowledge; my gifts lie in a more real-world realm.
As for the picture, I have been somewhat remiss on not getting a colophon up. The basis for the header is an image from Pashca 2004, a shot taken by Christopher Naughton of his son Michael.
I will endeavour to post the original here soon. And oh yes, I signed for your blasted email list. :)
I am not sure where you are going with this, or how it applies to this entry on my site and the comments that follow.
I posted reflections on the tonsuring of these three men, and what it meant for their families specifically, which has nothing to do with the appropriatness of the ordination of women, or whether or not the right number of men were tonsured.
Trust me, I am well aware of the sacrifices that are made in our church by those who are not wearing cassocks, since I am one of them (non-cassock wearing variety), but should I be bitter that I and some others whom we might think of as leaders in the Church were not tonsured?
For me the answer is no, as I have said before I believe in a God of Love and Compassion; a God like that would see to it that the Church is lead by those whom He deems fit at this given moment. Does that mean that I and others such as Simeon will never be tonsured?
Of course not.
But then does that mean that at the very next moment available the Archbishop will be running back here to cut my hair? No, it doesn't mean that either.
As with all things in the Church we wait for Truth to be revealed in the fullness of time, for some of us that time has not yet come. But we must believe that it will come, and in the time that God the Father has appointed. Pentecost was a good feast to have observed and celebrated today since it shows us the fruits of waiting for the fullness of time, as appointed by God and not by man.
I welcome your sincere concern for your brothers and sisters in the Faith James, so please don't take this as an attack, you should know by now how I feel about you and how much I value our relationship. I just thought I would try to post a bit more and see if we could get through some of the fog that has invaded this discussion.
Chris, I hope that no one is bitter for not being tonsured. I was actually relieved when I found out I wasn't going to be tonsured. I also wasn't talking about the ordination of women, which I of course do not believe in. I've heard comments to the effect that, "We can have services with real readers now," as if your prayers or my prayers aren't as good or something when we stand at the reader's stand.. I know that's not what is meant, but often in church settings people may say or act a certain way without consciously realizing it.
I see not being tonsured as a blessing for reasons I can't go into, but I and a lot of others would be bothered if our efforts were somehow seen as secondary. That is my concern, but I'm sure it will work out. To be honest with you I've sensed that some people in our mission have this very silly idea that I should be clergy. I think that's ... just wrong.
Actually David, Chris D. has some excellent words to say about the ordination issue. Chris, will you please say to him what you've said in my presence many times? I think that will clarify the matter. Believe me David, I do not believe that women cannot offer their lives to God or manifest devotion.
We do not believe that equality means sameness. The priesthood is a role just like motherhood is a role. I can't be a mother because I'm a man. Does that mean I'm not as good as women? No, of course not.
I believe what James is referring to is my personal ruminations on this subject. ( and it must be noted that this is My opinion, not the teaching of my Church; though I believe that it is not in contradiction to the Wisdom and Tradition of The Holy Orthodox Faith.)
You know what, this deserves its own post as well, so look for The Ordination of Women coming to a browser near you.
Going back to tonsured/ordained folks and "everybody else", to me one of the big themes at Pentecost is that the Holy Spirit was given to everyone who was gathered together to pray. Not just to the twelve apostles. Not just to the men. Everyone. When Peter preached on it, he cited the prophet Joel saying the Holy Spirit is meant to be poured out on "all flesh", specifically mentioning both "sons and daughters".
When John Chrysostom preached on Acts 2, he observed that at the end of Acts 1, Matthias was chosen to replace Judas Iscariot among the 12 but someone (Justin??) was not. The one not chosen had no cause to be jealous of Matthias, Chrysostom says, because they both received the Holy Spirit equally at Pentecost.
Stroll on over and visit JoelThomas
March 1, 2007
Wonderful post, Chris. I believe you understand the "weight" of the cassock well. What you said helped me realize the honor, respect, and love we should show them because of their sacrifices. I have heard it said before that being tonsured and ordained is not a "promotion" in our sense of the word, rather, a donning of even more responsibility and therefore somewhat of a demotion in terms of limiting freedoms. Makes you wonder, "why on Earth would anyone ever want to be tonsured?? Or married, for that matter! It truly is a calling.
Stroll on over and visit James
March 1, 2007
I rejoice with these three men and their wives and children, but we must not forget that there are plenty of others in our mission who give of themselves and spend many hours working who were not tonsured. Tonsuring and/or ordination is a manifestation of what already is, but that these three men are the only three to wear cassocks besides Fr. D. does not mean that the others do not manifest the same devotion and sacrifice. Many women in our church do (besides the wives of these men), and as we both know they will never wear cassocks. One man was not tonsured who has been a member of our mission for many years. I think we all expected him to be tonsured, but he wasn't. That is okay, but he still manifests the gifts and graces of servant. Remember we believe in an upside down pyramid and these men have taken a step down from us in authority and prestige.
Someone at dinner the other night commented to Fr. D. about our archbishop's humility in saying, "I'm not the only one with a direct line to God." Fr. D. said, "Yes, that would be clericalism."
Stroll on over and visit David Collantes
March 1, 2007
I admire them, certainly. Breaking up with the "normal life" to dedicate theirs to God is something not everyone can handle.
Stroll on over and visit basil
March 1, 2007
A well-reasoned reflection, brother. I was wondering as I read: What was the original source for the photograph at the top of the page?
Stroll on over and visit Chris J. Davis
March 1, 2007
Thank you Basil.
Coming from you that means a lot. I have never prided myself on a depth of ecclesial or theological knowledge; my gifts lie in a more real-world realm.
As for the picture, I have been somewhat remiss on not getting a colophon up. The basis for the header is an image from Pashca 2004, a shot taken by Christopher Naughton of his son Michael.
I will endeavour to post the original here soon. And oh yes, I signed for your blasted email list. :)
Stroll on over and visit Chris J. Davis
March 1, 2007
James,
I am not sure where you are going with this, or how it applies to this entry on my site and the comments that follow.
I posted reflections on the tonsuring of these three men, and what it meant for their families specifically, which has nothing to do with the appropriatness of the ordination of women, or whether or not the right number of men were tonsured.
Trust me, I am well aware of the sacrifices that are made in our church by those who are not wearing cassocks, since I am one of them (non-cassock wearing variety), but should I be bitter that I and some others whom we might think of as leaders in the Church were not tonsured?
For me the answer is no, as I have said before I believe in a God of Love and Compassion; a God like that would see to it that the Church is lead by those whom He deems fit at this given moment. Does that mean that I and others such as Simeon will never be tonsured?
Of course not.
But then does that mean that at the very next moment available the Archbishop will be running back here to cut my hair? No, it doesn't mean that either.
As with all things in the Church we wait for Truth to be revealed in the fullness of time, for some of us that time has not yet come. But we must believe that it will come, and in the time that God the Father has appointed. Pentecost was a good feast to have observed and celebrated today since it shows us the fruits of waiting for the fullness of time, as appointed by God and not by man.
I welcome your sincere concern for your brothers and sisters in the Faith James, so please don't take this as an attack, you should know by now how I feel about you and how much I value our relationship. I just thought I would try to post a bit more and see if we could get through some of the fog that has invaded this discussion.
Stroll on over and visit James
March 1, 2007
Chris,
I hope that no one is bitter for not being tonsured. I was actually relieved when I found out I wasn't going to be tonsured. I also wasn't talking about the ordination of women, which I of course do not believe in. I've heard comments to the effect that, "We can have services with real readers now," as if your prayers or my prayers aren't as good or something when we stand at the reader's stand.. I know that's not what is meant, but often in church settings people may say or act a certain way without consciously realizing it.
I see not being tonsured as a blessing for reasons I can't go into, but I and a lot of others would be bothered if our efforts were somehow seen as secondary. That is my concern, but I'm sure it will work out. To be honest with you I've sensed that some people in our mission have this very silly idea that I should be clergy. I think that's ... just wrong.
Stroll on over and visit David
March 1, 2007
"...I also wasn
Stroll on over and visit James
March 1, 2007
Actually David, Chris D. has some excellent words to say about the ordination issue. Chris, will you please say to him what you've said in my presence many times? I think that will clarify the matter. Believe me David, I do not believe that women cannot offer their lives to God or manifest devotion.
We do not believe that equality means sameness. The priesthood is a role just like motherhood is a role. I can't be a mother because I'm a man. Does that mean I'm not as good as women? No, of course not.
Stroll on over and visit Chris J. Davis
March 1, 2007
Well I guess I get to go into my schpeel anyway.
I believe what James is referring to is my personal ruminations on this subject. ( and it must be noted that this is My opinion, not the teaching of my Church; though I believe that it is not in contradiction to the Wisdom and Tradition of The Holy Orthodox Faith.)
You know what, this deserves its own post as well, so look for The Ordination of Women coming to a browser near you.
Stroll on over and visit James
March 1, 2007
Uh oh ... can of worms anyone? ;-)
Stroll on over and visit David
March 1, 2007
Chris, I will look forward to that entry. I also have my opinion, of course, which I explain in due time, under the upcoming post.
Stroll on over and visit sockmonk
March 1, 2007
Going back to tonsured/ordained folks and "everybody else", to me one of the big themes at Pentecost is that the Holy Spirit was given to everyone who was gathered together to pray. Not just to the twelve apostles. Not just to the men. Everyone. When Peter preached on it, he cited the prophet Joel saying the Holy Spirit is meant to be poured out on "all flesh", specifically mentioning both "sons and daughters".
When John Chrysostom preached on Acts 2, he observed that at the end of Acts 1, Matthias was chosen to replace Judas Iscariot among the 12 but someone (Justin??) was not. The one not chosen had no cause to be jealous of Matthias, Chrysostom says, because they both received the Holy Spirit equally at Pentecost.
May we all live in the grace of the Holy Spirit.
Stroll on over and visit Luke Seraphim
March 1, 2007
Excellent post and reflections Chris! Keep young master Joel in line... ;-) Hope to meet you in person sometime soon.